The one-on-one treatments, when they show an effect, are confounded by the more intense experience, the one-on-one attention, the group pressures, etc You are adding a lot of psychological elements which make it harder to establish causation. This article wasoriginally published on Pure Flix Insider. As she listened, she said that she heard a male voice coming from the corner of the room a voice she now believes was God. I had a lot of connections with Africa, different parts of Africa. Click here to subscribe to the Charisma News newsletter. These responses just seem so, I don't know, juvenile to me like it's like they haven't thought about these issues. prayer, laying of hands, religious service, etc) where miracles are claimed to be happening but they happen in only a small part of those same contexts and there's not a good reason give for that difference. A particular response has now happened twice in an ongoing discussion about extraordinary claims, and I felt I needed to think about it more deeply. I mean Grant still prayed for healing all his life. Thank you so much for having me. Scott Rae: So how did, how did she become a war refugee? Scott Rae: Right. Prayer, in her house, probably occurs even more frequently. In this case, Shermer's argument is that there is a context (e.g. It is quite clear that once you allow one miraculous healing in, using evidence of just one person, then one has to let in a whole host of others. The outcome was either a change in vision or hearing. Contains the quotes I read aloud about Barbara Snyder (healed from M.S.) It's part of the lowering of the standards of evidence. So we're talking about something like hundreds of millions of people. A document going through these particular medical statements with citations can be found here. fall transition to the AAU will depend on the progress of the search process. Partly, because we are human and have many biases. We're all aware of suffering in the world, but miracles is a happy topic. So tell our listeners some of the stories that you uncovered as a result of your research. From Send Proof Elijah StephensI didn't realize how difficult it would be [to find evidence for miracle healings]. The latter has more eyewitness testimony than we have for Barbara Snyder. The blind will see. What would happen if two people out in space a few meters apart, abandoned by their spacecraft, decided to wait until gravity pulled them together? In all of human history there has never been one single credible and fully verified miracle cure. Keener: in terms of anomalies whether they're anomalies or whether they're explainable in some way it helps if there's a pattern. Or even the most dramatic story I found from somebody that I or my wife knows, but this one was particularly mind blowing to me because Antoinette Malumbay was my mother-in-law and Terese is my sister-in-law. We also can't rule out that he was prayed for many many times in 16 years, and only at this particular time for some other reason he recovered. And of course, accounts from the west, it was easier to get the medical documentation so there were strengths with a lot of these. And they said, "Macular degeneration doesn't undegenerate." President Barbara R. Snyder announced today that she will become the next leader of the organization that represents the 63 leading research universities in the U.S., as well as two in Canada. Second thing she noticed was her hands were open. I had to work harder to get stuff from Latin America because a lot of it's in Spanish. After serving in several leadership positions at Moritz and within the central university, Barbara became OSUs interim executive vice president and provost in 2003 before securing that position on a permanent basis the following year. We're here at the meetings at the Evangelical Theological Society talking with Dr. Craig Keener. In my opinion this study represents a larger trend that I have discussed before clinical research going backwards in quality after higher quality studies yield negative results. Like that's just assuming what you wanted to establish. You need to collect the records, have a medical professional who can actually make sense of that data, and have a medical specialist who is willing to look at the data. In McLatchie's response, he said of my criticism of the claimed Barbara Synder healing. Yeah, I think of my friend Nabeel Qureshi. This goes a long way of establishing (or not) a causal link. Both great books that I encourage all of our listeners to get hold of and to digest. As Nathan puts it, it's telling believers who doubt "stop those naughty thoughts." Scott Rae: When we meet the Lord face to face. This would certainly be testable. Indianapolis, Indiana. We all don't get a sign or a wonder. and Duane Miller (healed from irrevocably damaged vocal chords). It would seem that these people are constantly dealing with skeptics, and the easiest way to address it would be to get the pre- and post- medical test data rather than a summary by one doctor, after the fact. Even her muscles were unatrophied. process later this month. He was 2200 in one eye and 2400 in the other and had already been through training for the blind. and Ada Thompson Professor of Biblical Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary in Kentucky. Don't presume what I'll believe, show me evidence of an arm growing back first, then perhaps we'll see -- but I'd need the proper controls. Barbara R. Snyderis president of the Association of American Universities. We would not believe any medical claim that didn't have these properties, so we are not having too high of a standard -- we are just refusing to lower the standard in these cases. I wrote about some of these cases in another post and I've written about miracles many times. randomized controlled studies, well considered controls, etc) to avoid these confounders. It's here for completeness, even though there isn't much more we can say. The situation was pretty hopeless until something quite shocking happened. Of course this is ludicrous, because teeth-brushing would occur twice a day, every day, so every single event would follow a teeth-brushing. We will be fully healed with our resurrection bodies. Both cases are discussed in Strobels video linked above as well. Barbara Snyder (Barbara Cummiskey Snyder) - healed from multiple sclerosis The institution that is referenced for the work is Global Medical Research Institute (GMRI) and the documentary about miracles referenced is Send Proof. She was blind, bedridden with severely impaired breathing due to a paralyzed diaphragm and a collapsed lung. Note that the STEP study mentioned below is, Let me start by saying that there have been gold standard studies before and after STEP that reached the opposite conclusion: that the group receiving prayer had better outcomes, she said. in social ethics from the University of Southern California, a Th.M. Craig Keener: Well if you ask me what motivated me to write a 1000 page book on miracles I could say nothing because I wasn't planning to do it initially, but it was certainly one of the most enjoyable projects I've worked on. Healings, casting out spirits, nature miracles in Mark and so on. Brian: Essentially Shermer's complaint about prayer being done and nothing happening is part what you would have in any kind of controlled study because you would have the case looking at all prayer events and which ones had effects and which ones didn't, that's the basic thing they seem unable to even grasp that idea and it shows a certain unwillingness to actually try to find the truth and to rule out these actual alternatives. I'm just wondering, is it possible to do it the other way around? What do atheists think of Barbara Snyder, who was healed of all her symptoms and all her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy? Scott Rae: Yeah, see that's the big miracle that's coming. placebo, memory contamination, fraud, spontaneous remission, etc) that will confound the effect so scientists have set up steps (e.g. On the one hand they use the excuse of "it's not replicable" when asked about how to test it, and on the other hand they want to also say that miracles are common -- more common than people realize. Is it possible she was misdiagnosed -- it wasn't MS, so looking for an MS recovery may be misdirected? There isn't anything that could tie the prayer as the causal element, given that she was most likely prayed for often an we're picking out the one case before a claimed recovery. ", Scott Rae: Yeah, so you had to, I guess you had to check your own-. (Warner Brothers even invited me onto the movie set to watch some of the filming and to meet the engaging actress.) Adapted from Editorial Theme html5up.net | @ajlkn, He ended up reading and it led him into a life of scholarship. I mean I tried to get accounts from all sorts of different cultures. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. The opportunity to serve as Case I mean I can explain theologically the already not yet of the Kingdom why it doesn't happen to everybody, but why this one and not that one? Earlier in her career, she served as provost of Ohio State University. It is interesting the Elijah seems to understand that we need evidence to believe a claim, that we need to weigh alternative hypotheses, but he seems to have no idea what a controlled study is or why it is necessary. Craig Keener: Yeah. We see this with homeopathy, where well-controlled studies are negative and then dismissed because treatments were not individualized. Craig Keener: Thanks so much for having me Scott. Now we move on to a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. "It got to the point where she was dying. But theists show no interest in doing this, they're satisfied with the first bad study that confirms what they already believe. By signing up to the Blaze News newsletter you agree to receive electronic communications from Blaze Media that may sometimes include advertisements or sponsored content. But she starts dancing around, jumping around. Thu 03 February 2022 Even in seemingly obvious cases. And he went to a retreat for the healing of the mind. But you in the west, you have this wonderful medical technology. in social ethics from the University of Southern California, a Th.M. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was ambivalent about whether these miracles still happen today. One miracle in particular stands out. He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. One Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens and a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. And the reason Usually people don't get medical documentation even when it's available. Quoting myself here (from this post). Presidents of Case Western Reserve University, President of Case Western Reserve University, "President Snyder expresses gratitude for CWRU community, bids farewell; video reflects on her tenure", "Case Western Reserve's Barbara Snyder's had a successful rebuilding year", "CWRU's Snyder earns no end of accolades", "What's next for Ohio State after Gee's retirement? But again, it's a sign. Likewise, Americans are quite prone to believing in the potential occurrence of miracles. Her feet and fingers were suddenly straight and normal again. Keener doesn't explore alternative hypotheses and how he'd distinguish between them. It's not enough to be given the treatment and see an improvement afterward. It's always possible to ask for more (Couldn't more doctors have seen it? I mean you could see it, the stories are so compelling that just based on the empirical data that you have, I found the case for miracles pretty hard to refute. Although MS can come in milder forms, Barbara's condition deteriorated quickly. So the first part of the answer is sort of true but trivial and also not what they've been doing but then the second part contradicts that by saying "just assume that it's true anyway and start praying for people." Chris Gunderson who was born with an incurable disorder called Chronic Pseudo Obstruction Syndrome, which was cured by prayer. To learn about us and today's guest, Dr. Craig Keener and to find more episodes, go to biola.edu/thinkbiblically. I commented on the story here but there is very little to go on. "So, we know that at least 450 Christians began praying for her, because they wrote letters saying, 'We're praying for you.'". But my wife and I have also been through a series of miscarriages. It's in American History, which is not, well there's a lot of Americans who can teach American History, so she especially teaches French. of the members of the University Athletic Association are part of the AAU. It's not impossible under theism, but it is an odd omission and speaks to God's motivation. administrators, including President Snyder herself. We can see the stories changing in the telling, being simplified, critical details dropped. However studies also show about 80% of ER nurses and 64% of ER doctors believe lunar cycles affect patients' mental health, even though the data do not support such an effect. Which I agree with, at least technically. It is justified to demand better evidence, because we do that for even more modest claims, and we have centuries of data on the failings of human reasoning in inferring causes from effects. ), This was an instantaneous healing of all of her symptoms and all of her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy, Strobel said. I, sometimes I'll joke it's obvious looking at me that healing doesn't always happen. 2021 - All rights reserved. She, first of all she ended up having to flee from the capital where she was teaching French at the U.S. Embassy, sorry, she was teaching English at the U.S. Embassy for Francophone Congolese residents. That is the definition of supernatural. "[5], In 2011, Cleveland.com reported Barbara R. Snyder's total compensation for the year of 2009 was $778,874.[6]. It's not just a few people. Barbara would always declare, "I love this Bible study! This one is obviously ludicrous, but I think undermines the theists claims quite a lot. Since these diseases are genetic, it makes it a lot less likely that she had this condition. Make sure you see our stories daily directly to your inbox. And of course there's no way to test medically because there was no medic op available. So we interviewed Antoinette Malumbay. What is more striking, especially for people who don't like Pentecostals or Charismatics, what's more striking is that the survey also in those 10 countries dealt with Christians who didn't consider themselves Pentecostal or Charismatic. A lot of accounts have been published from Asia. As you begin your hike, set your sights on a new direction. The story is of a person who was paralyzed from the waist down due to a car accident and 22 years later they were prayed for and healed. Despite several operations and treatments, Barbara continued to deteriorate to the point that she was put into respite with doctor's orders not to resuscitate. Otherwise, not. He's effectively asked "look, according to your explanation we would expect miracles to occur actually in many more cases because god apparently has the the reasons and the motivation and the context for him to perform miracles there but he doesn't, so there's a plausibility issue there with with your explanation" Shermer's identified one aspect that seems to be accounted for poorly on the miracle explanation. I am confident that Case Western "So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, 'Go find my parents' [and] jumps out of bed.". end of the fall 2020 semester. Further, the world is complex and any given effect can have many different possible causes, especially if we are talking about biological systems. Hey, thanks for listening. I want to refer our listeners to your two volume series on miracles. The story is that this person had a condition where they couldn't eat normally, were fed with a tube, and this persisted for 16 years. Well, yeah but could we be a bit more specific? How would you eliminate the hypothesis that a miracle did in fact happen? -pomelo- 9 mo. He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. The first doctor report is two years after the event (the event in 1972, the doctor visit in 1074)? Strobel went on to explain that he interviewed skeptics and believers, alike, and included their perspectives in The Case for Miracles. And just trying to stay ahead of the soldiers and the fighting. What about single cases? This is incredibly compelling stuff. So sometimes we don't see the outcome. maybe we can study this" That's how a lot of science is done, it starts with "oh wow, that's weird" and then we can go and start testing it but theists don't seem to even want to take that next step. Now you got to go work! Is this case unusual? I want this post to be the place where I put as many of the specific miracle claims, the actual evidence presented, and some of the responses. Finally, this gripe about a naturalistic bias is completely misguided. Nathan: I think what we're seeing here are the fruits of apologetics in some ways. First of all, is that true? But all of us are called to overcome. February 4, 2019 8. Recently, there was some data indicating possibly faster-than-light neutrinos. The treatment involves active physical intervention with the subject. At the beginning I didn't find all that. I went over her solutions when she did , Skepticism and Dubious Medical Procedures. But it's a wonderful volume. What is being missed here is it shouldn't matter what the skeptic says -- the evidence should be strong enough to convince the skeptic. In 1972, having been blind for over 12 years, the individual reportedly regained her vision instantaneously after receiving proximal-intercessory-prayer (PIP). And then the book that tells the story of your relationship to your wife called Impossible Love. ), but with the best they ever give us (like the cases above), the second you dig a little bit you find that all the evidence kind of vaporizes or there are plausible alternative explanations that take only a minute to come up with. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was "ambivalent" about whether these miracles still happen today. He has served in a variety of teaching and leadership roles, including a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015. None of us would say that all of those are authentic, but still we're talking about an awful lot of stories. I don't think they have established a real effect yet, so it's premature to speak about causes. Sure. It's not just saying that the evidence provided is lacking, but there is missing evidence that would be expected on the truth of the claim -- making it an argument against the claim. And certainly one shouldn't be willing to upend ones knowledge of how the universe works based on one report by one doctor on one patient. for her new role. Though he believed the Biblical stories of Christs miracles, Strobel was less convinced miracles were happening today. But there is another reason to study proximal prayer, which in this study meant physical laying on of hands, not just being near the subject. Craig Keener: It's my privilege. in Old Testament from Dallas Theological Seminary, and a B.A.S. University of Virginia, as well as private ones including Harvard, Yale, MIT, Elijah: I also think we in the west have a bias toward poor people as not having knowledge of when something's dead or an arm is broken or something of that nature and so I think when people put themselves in situations where they pray for the sick and a whole village knows this child was born blind from birth they're 15 years old and that person sees gets their sight back and this is a different religion and that village testifies he was blind now, he sees that is a different scenario than we're talking about here and the lens of science really can't speak to that. James is right that the evidence on a lot of these cases is really really bad. successor. These are two red flags which will need some level of caution in establishing the cause of the condition improving. Somebody we know, actually there were two people we know, who are witnesses of that one. 2) A child dies from after a doctor concluded that this would be the outcome of the disease. Synder's miraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turn-around. It's a long story. Elijah: I think this: the fact that there are fake miracles does not preclude the fact that there can be real miracles. At least there is documentation published at https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/. This is clearly a rare medical case -- but with 7 billion people you'd expect some of these often just by the law of large numbers. Craig Keener: Thanks. 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Paralyzed diaphragm and a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener a collapsed lung going through these medical!