TC barrels come with adjustable sights, but optics mounts are available. They are densely packed creatures with tough hides and sometimes serious gristle plate for protection. Enderby Ranch. Hitting what you're aiming at with a 1911 in hunting conditions could be difficult. It's not called the Bill Of Needs. Slowly, I rested the Operator on the window ledge of the blind and settled the sights behind the shoulder. Mark and Karen, his lovely wife of 40 years, reside in south Missouri and enjoy hunting on their farm. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Lead free, or all copper bullets, show dramatic terminal performance on soft skinned animals, even when fired at the reduced velocities generated by handguns. Terms of Service - Im occasionally asked, Whats your effective range when hunting with the 10mm? If Im honest with myself, this is an easy question to answer. It is much more powerful than the 45ACP but is also considerably more flat in its trajectory, which is important for hunting ranges. This should give you a full field of view, since both of your eyes should be open. Only the government --and a few outlaws. Thanks for your help on this. I wouldn't recommend it for sure but it can be done. A legal caliber is one with a caliber of. Springfield Armory recommends you seek qualified and competent training from a The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, https://www.facebook.com/elitewarriorarmament, http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214, http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=428, http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produp-230gr-p-ammo/cName/45-acp-hollow-point-ammo, http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/23_76_122/products_id/6006, Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Just wondering, this being a 1911 forum, has anyone ever tried and had luck shooting a deer with one? The load for a carbine is 30 tons. 38 Super, and 45ACP for purposes of hunting. Reply 11-21-2008, 06:04 AM # 19 wis_bow_huntr Giant Nontypical Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Nekoosa Wi USA Posts: 6,066 RE: 1911 for Deer The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources has announced that it will begin using as of this year. Thanks!!! I have a tendency to support the revolver side, because a 1911 type of action has the possible negative effect of going out of battery, if you press the muzzle against a bear's hide. News The bullets are designed to expand rapidly and create a large wound cavity, making them ideal for hunting large game animals such as bear, moose, and elk. Nov 15, 2022 So what's your take on deer hunting with an AR? Very accurate and straight on through. I also suggest a larger round so deer doesn't suffer. The answer is yes if you are wondering if The 350 Legend is legal for deer hunting. I have acquired the appropriate handgun, quality hunting ammunition, a sight in session, and a ground blind set up to move to Phase Two. This was just to see where the pistol was hitting. 1911 For Deer Hunting In Minnesota September 26, 2022by Arnold In Minnesota, deer huntingis a popular pastime. Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made. The shooting range is open to the public. A bow hunting license is required for those who hunt with a bow and arrow. As a result, it is critical that you understand Minnesota hunting laws for firearms and bows and arrows. By the time I was ready for a second shot, the pig had gained its feet and had started its sprint out of the heavy cover away from us. In a few months Ill be chasing hogs with the 10mm longslide. RE: 1911 for Deer. In a 1911 type pistol configuration the 10mm is just about the most powerful cartridge available. The requirements really are more similar than some folks might think. I usually hunt in eastern Oregon elk and big western mulies with an early 80's vintage Remington 700 KS Mtn rifle in .300 win mag. My advice, if you're really going to try to whack a deer with a 1911, buy one in 10mm. The TRP Operator 1911 in 10mm makes a solid choice for reasonably close-range handgun hunting. The pig was lying on its right side facing away from me at a slight angle. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. As I was browsing through several social media platforms in the hunting and shooting groups, I couldnt help but notice the amount of handgun hunting being shared. The muzzleloader utilizes the same VariFlame Breech Plug adapter as its predecessors, allowing it to use large-rifle primers for consistent ignition of what CVA terms "super-magnum" charges. The features that make a big game rifle suitable for hunting include a magazine capacity that is large enough to hold enough cartridges for a single shot, a barrel length that is long enough to provide stability and accuracy, and a stock that is designed for a comfortable and secure grip. Excellent read but what is your new weapon? Not looking for anything about shot placement, just results, if any. Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. The 8-point attempt went for about 45 yards before falling over. What I lacked was a demonstration of either rounds ability to penetrate the serious gristle armor on a large boar. ~ Recurveman~. Sundles has used flat-nosed, hard-cast bullets on the field because he has a strong preference for them. It does not include, for example, a persons home or premises, or the land they own or manage. Whitetail Deer Hunting - Deer hunting with a 1911 as backup. I've taken several deer with a 6" S&W 586. Kimber pistols are the quintessential 1911. Its a great choice for 1911 aficionados. Sorry, I couldn't help it. In addition to hunting with a firearm, all other types of game must be licensed. Since my favorite pistol is the Model 1911 and it happens to be the perfect host for the 10 mm cartridge, I wondered if we couldn't "maximize" the 1911 by chambering it in 10 mm. Yeah, its a bit much for deer but you never know when that mega-buck wearing body armor might wander by. Many hunters prefer to use a rifle, but a shotgun can also be used. In some circles the 10mm is compared to the .41 Magnum in terms of terminal energy ratings. All three using a DW PM7. Married with two children and Molly the Schnoodle. There are 6.5 Creedmoor and. It might have been more like a car dealer just wanting to sell what is on the car lot, not having to be bothered with ordering one. 49 yards offhand heart shot. Can you draw and put a one shot stop with your 1911 on a deer between 5 and 50 yds, if so you must have trained with your pistol, you can and should train equally hard with your rifle. These But big wild boars are not soft skinned animals. He staggered, and Mike put him down with two more quick shots. If you're looking to enhance your performance to better defend yourself and your family on the mean streets, take your 1911 hunting. In Minnesota, it is illegal to shoot deer with a 1911 45acp. The 10mm has experienced a rise in popularity, resulting in ammo manufacturers offering some mighty fine hunting rounds. I am used to 1911 slide releases letting go of the slide simply by pushing the release lever down. Over the last decade there seems to have been a renewed interest in handgun hunting, particularly with 10mm pistols. It also has a standard magazine capacity of 15, so if you suck at shooting you wont run out of ammunition before that big buck gets out of sight. Though not quite at the power level of a .357 Revolver, the 10mm is more than sufficient for deer, and 10mm pistols weigh about a pound less than six-inch revolvers. A few years back, under pressure from various state and special interest groups, the ranch agreed that all future hunts would be "lead free." A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. The shotguns are only permitted to be used for deer hunting during the regular shotguns season in the shotguns use area, which includes legal shotguns loaded with single-slug shotguns, legal muzzle-loading long guns, and legal shotguns. I have used Barns Tac-XPD with great success. Except for wolves, which can only be hunted with the calibers specified in subdivision 1, anyone who takes small game with a handgun of any caliber may do so under commissioners orders. People hunt deer for food and sport. The debate still rages on about 1911 type actions versus revolvers for backup guns for hunting. Just make sure you match the caliber and ammunition to your quarry. Editors Note: Be sure to check out The Armory Life Forum, where you can comment about our daily articles, as well as just talk guns and gear. This makes for a perfect opportunity to take a deer with a handgun from a comfortable seated position using a Caldwell DeadShot FieldPod, a Primos Trigger Stick, or even conventional shooting X-sticks from inside the stand. Most gun manufacturers advise against using non-SAAMI-compliant primers and bullets. Well, it can be done, but a lot of that depends on where you're hunting as well. $6.50 + $4.50 shipping . Whats the big picture overview of hunting with the 10mm? A round like this, while not as spectacular as a HV rifle round, can be effective. If u want a challenge try bow or blackpowder. I would suggest that 10mm might be a better round for killing deer. Have taken three SE WhitetailAll three were within 30 yards, one with a 260 gr JHP and two with 230 gr FMJ. - Thomas Paine. That said, there are a few things we looked for in a good deer rifle. Has anyone had success or any problems with a good quality JHP (thinking Speer Gold Dot?) I've never heard of anyone hunting deer with a .45 ACP, although I know of one person who hunts white-tails with a 10mm auto in a 1911-style pistol. I killed a deer once at about 15 yards with a .357 mag. Having hunted and shot deer with a handgun since the '80s I have some thoughts on this. By logging into your account, you agree to our. I plan on filling one of my tags with Springfields Armory TRP Operator in 10mm providing the deer read the script. Hunting Preserves Near Farmers Branch. I continued the search. I would keep ranges reasonable of course. Click the Go To Forum Thread link below to jump in! In a search at local gun dealers and after working three or four gun shows, the only 10mm semi-auto I could find was a Glock. After an entire box of ammo expended with several sight adjustments mainly all to the right, I was finally getting into my standard of shots inside a 10-inch circle, or the prospective kill zone of a white-tailed deer. Saying you need anything bigger than these handguns for deersomething like the 500 Smith & Wessonis like saying you need a 416 Rigby rifle for the same. I dont have any recommendations for Hollow points, but I can tell you my opinion. Don't know about SC. However, some folks like to kill the hell out of the deer they hunt, and these handguns will let them do that with a wrist-twisting roar. Here are some of the heaviest ever taken, including three 700-plus-pound porkers, and the almost mythical "Hogzilla". Wilson Combat 1911s are generally regarded as the best 1911s made by anyone, anywhere, and the Hunter pistol is Wilson Combats interpretation of what a hunting handgun should be. I have hunted with my scoped S&W Mod 29 sitting in my lap in tree stands and ground blinds. That would be my maximum practical range for shooting a deer out of my ground blind. In defensive shooting, once the threat is recognized and a first shot is fired, its about finishing the fight. I had just emerged from the Jeep and gotten my feet under me when he burst through the brush on the edge of the road less than fiveyards from me. The Shilen 416R stainless barrel is free-floated in a one-piece billet aluminum stock, and the barrel and action are Cerakoted. Hunting with bows and arrows is not the same as shooting with a firearm, and you must be aware of the laws regarding them. I plan to buy some standard hardball ammo just to run a hundred rounds or so through the gun before I go back with the hunting ammunition. I think this pistol is uglier than Cyrano de Bergerac, but it may be the best buy out there when it comes to a semi-automatic pistol for deer hunting. It is a very attractive pistol. Amazing myself (and making all my Gunsite instructors proud) I had the Kimber out and delivered threefast shots, dropping the pig just before he reached the far side of the road. Updated Dec 16, 2022 4:00 PM. This year, I'm going to carry my 629 .44 mag for a little extra firepower in addition to the 3 rounds the rifle holds. Just $1 per month , If you ever wanted to tag a whitetail with a handgun, here are the best tools for the job, By $6.50 + $4.50 shipping . Ennis, TX. Live The Armory Life. But I haven't really considered a .45 ACP. Many people use them for hunting because they are accurate and powerful. Studies have shown that deer populations are significantly lower in areas where shotguns and rifles are not permitted than in areas where they are. I'm pretty sure you can kill a deer with a .45 ACP, but I'm not so sure that it will be a quick kill. The chamber is the part of the barrel where the cartridge is held before being fired. Fit and finish are beyond exceptional, and its price, unless you married well, is out of reach for most deer hunters. JavaScript is disabled. In prep for some range shooting, sight adjusting, and such, I completely cleaned and lightly lubricated the pistol. Minnesotas deer population has taken a significant step forward with this bills passage. We have medium-small sized deer here in SC compared to other areas of the country and will be carrying a 1911 with me this year, along with my rifle. I just don't think a .45 has enough power to cleanly take deer size animals where you won't get a perfect shot. You cannot hunt with a bow and arrow if you have a felony conviction on your record. I would try to keep a maximum range of 50yds. The latest content straight to your inbox plus an automatic entry to each of our monthly gungiveaways! When the hammer dropped, the doe flinched and disappeared immediately. A muzzleloading pistol is a firearm that can be used with a muzzle. The most common caliber for a big game rifle is .30-06, but there are many other calibers that are suitable for this type of hunting. We think that the best rifle calibers for deer hunting are the. However, the technical definition for a pistol is a handgun with a chamber that is integral to the barrel. My hunting partner and I sprayed the bucks blood on the ground as we hunted. Can you use a 350 legend in Ohio? Took this one at 23 yards. Taurus Raging Hunter Price: $885.99 Caliber: 44 Magnum Barrel: 8.375 inch Total: 3.44lb Capacity: 6 Buy Yours From Our Partner Now! The NRX is chambered for the .44 Mangum and has a 7.5-inch barrel, rail space for optics, lights, or lasers, adjustable sights, a new style cylinder release, finger-grooved laminated grips, and the slickest trigger action youve ever felt on any revolver. This news will come as a significant relief to many hunters. I consider pistol hunting deer, like bow hunting with a gun, to be a close-range sport because I want to kill deer at close quarters. The pistol sports a brushed satin silver stainless finish with black rubberized synthetic grip panels. The term pistol is generally used to denote a semi-automatic handgun. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to use this website. Contact Us - A 223-grain rifle is a good choice for deer hunting. Volume 8: The 10mm Digital Magazine. Sorry. In a 1911 type pistol configuration the 10mm is just about the most powerful cartridge available. 200 gr cast semi wad cutters. "Alive" is a very vague term. If I mount a red dot sight such as Trijicons RMR or Leupolds DeltaPoint Pro on the TRP Operator, then I could extend the distance a little. The trigger is very smooth with a great let off. Otherwise I will use my 52 cal Knight muzzleloader, that always get the job done. More importantly for my mission, he began with the 10 mm round and has continued to expand the selection of this caliber to include a variety of loads. I also set up a highway construction stand to shoot off of at 20 yards to repeat this level of acceptable accuracy. Mark is actively involved in the hunting community and writes for several nationally recognized publications. I've found Hornady Custom Ammunition loaded with their XTP bullet to be the best round for killing hogs with .40 S&W and .45 ACP pistols. In one shot, I shot a 122-yard round out of my Encore.270 pistol. It was game back on! But for the guides who venture into heavy brush after wounded pigs with handguns, it was a different story. Some people are for it, while others are against it. gpa: taken a bunch with the 1911 in 45 under deprivation permits and like bigeasy I too use a hardcast semi-wadcutter, the Lyman bullet # 452423, originally a Keith style design for the 45 Auto rim at 238-240 gns over 6.5 of Unique for right around 950'/sec. Good practice sessions are important to keep on top of your game. Stephen A. Saw a cop put down a deer that was hit by a car with a .45 glock. This particular 1911 is a longslide with 6 barrel. We have over a dozen planted wildlife food plots with multiple types of stands available for deer hunting: ladder stands, tripods, and shooting houses. There is no straight answer when it comes to deer hunting with a handgun in Minnesota. If I did, I think I'd develop some hot hard cast loads. The 10mm Auto was not designed to harvest big game at long range and shouldnt be employed to do so. The 9mm As a Hunting Cartridge Shawn has a ranch that has been in his family for quite some time and being the avid hunter that he is, has it set up for deer hunting in a way that would make any hunter proud. The Volunteer XV Pro features is built on a mid-length gas system with a 16-inch threaded barrel and chambered in 6mm ARC to make it a high-speed deer hunter made in the USA. If it's in your hands, it should take a second or less for the rifle to be in shooting position, with a correct cheek-weld achieved. Heres a look at nine of the best options with a few hand cannons thrown in for good measure or silliness, whichever you prefer. The shotguns zone is long overdue for a change in design because it has been widely criticized as ineffective and outdated. The vaunted stopping power of the .45 ACP fails if sufficient penetration is not achieved. The hunt couldn't have gone better. It is not illegal for a person under the age of 18 to hunt with a bow and arrow. The Springfield Ronin (.45 or 10mm) is a comely, capable 1911, a perfect match for a chest holster. A muzzleloader can be in the field or at the ready with an in-line or disk design. GA once had a "500 ft/lbs @ 100 yds." It is expected that a small number of hunters will use them. Bottles & 12-oz. In Minnesota, deer hunting is a popular pastime. Provided you are within an acceptable range, I don't see why you couldn't humanely hunt deer with something in .45 ACP. A 45 ACP bullet with a bullet size of 400 yards is estimated to be 1550 fps with an energy footlb of 801. Those things can be mistaken for cattle from 1/2 mile away. There are two types of firearms, the 7mm and the 270 gun. That is the plan anyway. Deer prefer shotguns over rifles because shotguns are less effective at killing them, and bucks frequently avoid areas with a lot of shotguns. The TRP was loaded with Federals 180-gr. Our guide, Randy, spotted a large pig bedded down under some thick cover, and we were able to approach unnoticed within 20 yards. Also, the Glock had fixed sights, which I did not want for this task. Hunting: How to Read the Land for Deer Here's how to find deer in woodlands, farm fields, and mountainous terrain. Alaskan, Heavy 35 Remington, Sniper 223 Remington, Sniper Winchester, Heavy 450 Carver, Heavy 30/30. Did not seem as quick as any arrow shot I have made, which puts them down and out fairly quickly. But there are some handguns thatif you can shootwill allow you take a deer at what many would consider rifle ranges. Minnesota Statute 624.9, also known as the Minnesota Personal Protection Act, outlines the rules for keeping a firearm while bow hunting for deer. With aging eyes and iron sights, 50 yards is about my personal maximum range. The alloy materials used in hard cast bullets (antimony, silver, tin, and so on) give the bullet a much stronger finish than pure lead. Join F&S+ to read exclusive stories by your favorite writers. Next I called Mike McNett at DoubleTap Ammunition. Gun: Kimber 1911 Eclipse Custom II 10MM Ammo: Hornady 180grain JHP Cover: Ground Blind To my surprise, the dealer had both Kimbers in stock, including two of the Stainless Target II models. Mike did equally well, taking a 300-pound boar (also estimated by the guide) with his 200-grain Controlled Expansion load at about 25 yards. Placing that bullet in the vitals is no less crucial. Kimber makes a 10MM 1911 specifically designed for hunting, this would be a better option. Having hunted SC for over 20 years while living there I will say that given the close ranges most deer are taken at, there(power line hunting aside) The .45 can be very effective out to 25 yards or so in. In ohio it is a minimum of a 5-inch barrel length, so a full sized 1911 would qualify. In this case I had to slightly ease the slide back from the muzzle to get the release to let go. I still wouldn't bet my hunt on a pistol that is marginal at 50 yds. I have had good success with a revolver, not a 1911, but am convinced that any stout hollow point load from your 1911 will do if you are a little picky about your shot! Many hunters have been calling for this change for a long time, and it will be a significant improvement. Its a combination of stainless and blued steel, and comes with a hammer forged 5-inch barrel, an ambidextrous safety, a checkered front strap, and G-10 grips. Its a hot round so if you plan on shooting more than a box or two you will need to get a set of heavier springs for the gun. - Originally Posted by Oldtimr Not legal in PA, you can carry one bit you can't shoot deer or any big game with it. University, and then a PhD in Industrial Psychology. While the Python and the 686 are more tailored to defensive or recreational shooting, this Blackhawk was made for hunting. snubnose revolver backup gun, but a handgun with poor sights isn't a very high percentage endeavor even at close yardage. Two where Kimbers, and one was the older Colt Delta model, all chambered in the 10mm cartridge. I know this pistol is a good firearm, but it just does not fit my hand like a 1911 version. It was a perfect opportunity to slip a round into the chest cavity from behind the shoulder. However, some of the most popular deer hunting calibers in Minnesota include the .30-06, .270 Winchester, and .308 Winchester. Reply. Join F&S+ to read exclusive stories by your favorite writers. Springfields Armory TRP 10mm is ideally suited for such a task. Currently VP at largest community college in Mississippi in economic development and workforce training with 40 years of experience in Higher Education. The most popular calibers in recent years include the 45-70 Magnum lever gun. What do you think about hunting with a 1911? The Wilson Combat Hunter is probably one of the, if not the, best 1911 pistol for hunting ever made. Since pig hunting (and self defense) is a year round activity, we needed something to ensure that sweaty hands would not compromise my shooting grip, particularly if rapid follow up shots were required. All about shot placement, I believe. All three are fitted with adjustable sights and are light enough that you can shoot them off-hand without support. JSP. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. Advertising - If you're talking about the average deer stand shot of 15-20 yds., just about anything will do, as you'll surely be able to make a head or neck shot. The 10mm has experienced a rise in popularity, Yamil Sueds review of the TRP Operator in .45 ACP. OP was talking about taking jump shot's at deer, not taking well aimed well placed shot's, there is a difference. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. You can actually sit back into the rear wall of the stand in the dark where deer cannot see you, yet you can see out both side and front windows. The pie plate is basically the size of the vital area on a deer. Three shoots in the "boiler room", took 45 seconds to quit kicking. On our farm, we have several blinds located throughout the property. Revolvers have an advantage over semi-automatic pistols in that they can fire much more powerful cartridges, and their single-action trigger pull is generally very good. During the regular firearms season in the shotguns use area, only legal shotguns with single-slug shells, legal muzzle-loading long guns, and legal handguns are permitted to be used to take deer. Copyright 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Buffalo Bore Bullets are high performance ammunition designed for maximum penetration on large game animals. What part of Michigan do ye hail from? Trinity Outfitters Shooting Resort. Its the perfect choice for a serious handgun hunter. Some states may require a specific type or caliber of pistol to be used, while others may outright prohibit the use of pistols for deer hunting. This provides a confidence level I need when a deer or big wild hog appears. The black adjustable sights are Kimbers own. For defense in the backcountry, look no further than Winchester Big Bore. The third shot perforated low in the chest area just under the hide but failed to strike any of the vital organs. ~ Recurveman~. Working on shooting fundamentals such as trigger squeeze, sight picture, breathing, consistent grip, target acquisition and follow-through are essential components of keeping in-tune with your handgun. From a ground hide it is not unusual to have deer walk within yards of the blinds. I think that this is a minimum for humane kills at a close. All three rounds were through and through; unfortunately this boar hadnt developed any real armor yet. Wisconsin has a law that allows it. just my 2 cents. A red-ramped front sight is standard with both models. Camp used to hunt Texas deer with .45acp and 9mm, using a 1911 and BHP, respectively. With both, bullet upset is desirable, penetration a must. In fact, a 686 was my first duty handgun. The Prairie's End Hunt Club. Just because their still kickin' doesn't mean their not dead. The sales guy pulled the other one from stock and it was 100%. | Oops, there's been an error. For many years both were the most popular duty guns found in the holsters of American cops. I would hope it's not some Macho Bull Crap! Well, I consider a 240g Jacketed Soft Point out of a 44 mag to a very adequate load for under 50 yards. The 586 is the blued version and comes with wood grips, the 686 is stainless steel and has a rubber grip. Registration on or use of this site constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Service. If your scope is set up properly ad on low power like you wisely had it, you should be on target in the blink of an eye. Single-action revolvers are still extremely relevant for deer hunting and the Super Blackhawk Bisley Hunter is a great example of this kind of firearm. I couldn't afford more than one handgun back then. 1911 Idaho Pioneer Family Gypsy Traveler House Caravan . Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Choosing the right bullet for the intended task is paramount. That guilt and my high expectations were hoping for a positive outcome. Recognizing that pig hunting, particularly wounded pig hunting, generally takes place in thick cover in dim light, Dave ordered a SDM custom gold bead front sight for maximum visibility and left all edges of the sight blade sharply defined to ensure there would be no compromising the sight picture in bright daylight. You need to be really close. Yes, I realize there are those out there that can stretch this distance much further. All that said, Im rather pleased with my performance and the outcome. And yet there's nothing plain or ho-hum about the finished product as the picture will attest. I'm sure a lot of people of shot deer with the 45 acp but in my opinion there are better choices like a 357 mag or bigger. All three were within 30 yards. If youre used to shooting a Glock and would like to hunt deer with one, the G40 is probably your best option. A Class A or B misdemeanor conviction on your record will also prevent you from hunting with a firearm. Fortunately, the early morning fog lifted and a mature doe came slipping along through the woods. The AR-10 has even been equipped with a Buffalo Bore load that can fire a 250-grain bullet at 2,500 feet per second. In addition to the 430 Marlin, there are heavy 38-55 and heavy 348 Winchester.
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