Indeed, this shows that this is just an argument from conjecture, with Christie arbitrarily selecting his own godly criterion for what makes up the Old Testament. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. Thats fair. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. . I mean, its not a good proof text to use. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. What am I to do with this? They also allude to events and stories contained in these texts. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. He would end up playing two years for the Buccaneers. Okay. And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. So you can use the app for three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. I have also appeared several When early followers of Jesus began to focus their adoration on Mary, rather than on Christ alone, Jesus responded, Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it. Thank you. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. But it doesnt demand for that though. Both the Old and the New Testaments also use firstborn to indicate firstborn among other siblings, such as Esau being Isaacs firstborn and Ruben as Jacobs first born, meaning they were not firstborns out of their fathers wombs, considering men dont have wombs, but firstborn among their other children. The word adelphos is used numerous times in both the Old and New Testament to describe people who have had the same parents. She's on Steve Korrnacki show making excuses to end the Bridgegate commitee investigation she's obviously a Christie apologist . 18. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. Can a person die? First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. Okay. If Mary was conceived sinless and kept the law perfectly, then Christ could not be her savior. Lets debate the Apocrypha! Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. Make an Appointment So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. They wanted people following scripture even if they were wrong. Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. His father was a drummer during the Big Band Era and played with the likes of Tommy Dorsey and Artie . 2022 Defenders Media All Rights Reserved, Apologetics315 is a ministry of Defenders Media, 501(c)(3) a non-profit organization. So I think its important that each of us, we dont have a problem with We might have a problem how to apply it but the basic level mother of God isnt contradicted by scripture. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. More on that in a moment. Yeah. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. The Pharisees did not have unique doctrinal authority over all other Jews since, Jesus said the Pharisees shared the seat of Moses with the scribes (Matt. He was preceded in death by both his parents. Thank you and God bless everyone. Their issue is about the authority of the church. So feel free to answer that briefly. . And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. Theres no divine judgment on Mary in any form described here in Mark chapter three. So again, argument by exception. So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. Lets start with the last books of the Protestant Old Testament, which Christie and many other Protestants says are Ezra and Nehemiah in the fifth century B.C. This is not a commitment to lend. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Thats just how debates work. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. Christie claims that Jesus declaration to the Pharisees about all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar was actually an endorsement of the Protestant Old Testament canon. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. Good, because you know what? Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. So this would be an argument saying that it is fitting, therefore it is true. 23:2), some of whom were not Pharisees. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. Okay. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. The relevance would be that you are using it. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon Trent Horn Vs Steve Christie Debate, The Canon of Scripture Debate Part 1 Gary Michuta (Catholic) vs. Steve Christie (Protestant), Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller with Steve Christie. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. And if you look into church history, these dogmas were not all agreed upon. No. Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. So multi-part question here. But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. And eventually those ended up being dropped throughout the debate. In week 7 vs. the San Diego Chargers, Christie kicked a 29-yard field goal with just :11 seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. So Im going to cover four of them. Professional career [ edit] Early career [ edit] [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. Chris Christie is one of six Catholics among the 17 candidates running for the Republican nomination in the crowded 2016 presidential race. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. Edward John Carnell - was a prominent and influential Christian theologian and apologist. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. Then after being assumed into heaven, she would have a glorified body. I addressed this a little bit during the debates of the specific Greek word [inaudible 01:21:19], which is translate full of grace or highly favored, even Jimmy Akin from Catholic answers that. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. Well, a lot to cover here. Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. Landlord. Okay, I get that. Yeah. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. He has authored over 170+ books.Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV). Its referring back to 2 Samuel when its talking about the ark being moved to Jerusalem. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. Why would that be the case? And this includes Mary, who Jesus saved her by redeeming and delivering her from her sins. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. Well start with you, Steve. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? For example, in Psalm 69:5, it says of the Messiah, Oh God thou knowist my folly. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. The earliest source sharing in this view that she died first is from the Dormition. He was put on a cross. Things like whether shes Mediatrix or Co-Redemprtix. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. I think it will be. He went on to score 1108 points in 156 consecutive regular season and post-season games and still stands as the top scorer in Bills' history. His kicking shoe from that game is displayed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton. Overview. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. The Pharisees had unique teaching authority in Israel, and the Pharisees canon was essentially the same as the Protestant Old Testament canon. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. For example, in Hebrews 9:27, it says that it is appointed for men to die once and then face judgment and this is true for basically every single human being whoever lived, except for some exceptions like Lazarus and people that Jesus raised from the dead who died twice. Trent mentioned about dying once. Thank you very much, Steve. Yeah. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. I wish that all were as I myself am. 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